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... Some passerbys are taking me to task in the recent FDE thread. It's the same old "3 shot groups are useless" bullsh*t. Soooo, I dragged Ms. FDE out and shot a 5 shot group to make a point. The point being that Bryan Litz, the Statistician of all Statisticians, has a very useful chart in one of his amazing Blue Books. In that chart (see 2nd pic) he says multiply 3-shot groups by 1.28 to get a handle on what that group would've looked like had two more rounds been thrown into it to make it a 5-shot group. Last Wednesday, I shot several 3-shot groups out of Ms. FDE and they hovered right at 1/2" (see pic 3 & 4). 0.500" x 1.28 = 0.640" ... Today's 5-shot group may actually be exactly 0.640", but I quick rulered it at 0.630". That ends today's 3-shot vs 5-shot lesson. Happy New Year Y'all !!! 💥us 💥 ML


572 likes

kjm104110 "look" 🤣🤣🤣 3 likes

  -  laruetactical @kjm104110 ... I was looking at your ducks 😎 1 like

goodtimes223 But what does a 10 shot group look like though? Would be nice to see what the real world accuracy would be in a long string of fire. 3 likes

  -  laruetactical @goodtimes223 ... A long time ago, an SF guy told me he cared about two shots. He sent one to see where it went, then made a correction and sent #2. After that they were movers 4 likes

  -  goodtimes223 @laruetactical I think what I'm getting at is: in a combat or competition scenario, longer and quicker strings of fire are what people would experience. Group size from longer strings of fire would demonstrate what the expected spread would be engaging multiple targets as well. Such as firing at 10 or more targets, even if they were one shot kills, how much would those groups change after a mag or two. I think it'd be helpful to see with other situations in mind. If people who buy your rifles only care about flat range and low round count strings of fire, I could see 3-5 shot groups being sufficient. 1 like

  -  laruetactical @goodtimes223 ... A competition shooter posted in the last one of these 3-shots vs 5-shots discussions. He said he shot 10 shot strings in "timed fire" to observe what the rifle did as she warned up. He also took heat readings off the barrel. Not because the barrel warped as it heated up, but because the inside diameter increases as she heats up, causing it to be a different barrel that he needed to know what she was gonna do.

  -  goodtimes223 @laruetactical right that's kind of what I'm getting at. It's vitally important to know what your barrel will do in different situations. I'm curious what the ones you sell will do under those higher stress situations. 1 like

  -  laruetactical @goodtimes223 ... Mine ain't 2 foot long and thick as your wrist, plus they are mounted in an aluminum chassis. 😎

real_jacobwalters So this would mean the guns aren't half moa, right or am I not getting something? 4 likes

  -  laruetactical @real_jacobwalters ... Well, since this is about math ... 0.500" / 1.047 = 0.4775 moa

  -  real_jacobwalters @laruetactical unless we go by the 5 shot group. 0.630/1.047 = 0.6017 moa, right? 3 likes

  -  laruetactical @real_jacobwalters ... We don't guarantee a 1/2 moa into infinity

  -  laruetactical @real_jacobwalters ... Also, any monkey can outshoot me, the King of the Boomers 😎 2 likes

  -  real_jacobwalters @laruetactical fair enough

jpyro69 I'm convinced! Now can you say that real slow so us crayon eaters can understand? 😂semper fi 1 like

  -  laruetactical @jpyro69 ... The funny thing that the proud non-reloaders miss is that aforementioned 16" barrel, that shot several 1/2" groups, still has afterbirth all over it. I won't expound more on that fact. ML 1 like

mgarfias Real men shoot 50shot groups 1 like

  -  laruetactical @mgarfias ... That's two and a half boxes ... which tugs at my OCD 😳😳 1 like

  -  jspryce @mgarfias full auto. 😂

  -  j1mmydelta1138 @mgarfias 1 and 2/3 mags?! GROSS!

texan.right Good info! 2 likes

bklingensmith61 Can't argue with THIS science. Mr. Litz is THE end of the story. Way above my head but if I see holes touching, I'm a happy man.

icecoldmn Anyone who knows LaRue knows the gun is likely more capable than the shooter. I'm surprised you don't have a jig to shoot the uppers taking human error out of the equation. If you did I'd love to see the results and the haters when they figure out it is them that can't shoot a sub Moa group

  -  laruetactical @icecoldmn ... They'd say "Meh, that ain't real world conditions"

  -  laruetactical @icecoldmn ... There's truth in that first sentence. I had a guy quietly tell me my technique was loosey-goosey and with "proper this and that", groups get tighter still. Meh, I'm just trying to aim at the same spot ... sorta/kinda 🤷

  -  icecoldmn @laruetactical I think the moa all day challenge says a ton about your barrels, I dident count them all but you have to hold more positions than anyone in the top tier manufacturers. To me that speaks volumes as to what a decent shooter can do with your product

  -  laruetactical @icecoldmn ... Thanks for noticing that little known fact 💪

willluvstafish I put one of your triggers in my AR and it's very nice! Next, upgraded barrel by you 1 like

eocsis_86 Baby steps! Next we need a 6x5!!!

_capt_obvious You know, Mark, I have been a competitive shooter since 1988, and have a pile of trophies, including a few from Camp Perry to back up my abilities. I've been a boutique builder since 1997, doing a lot of work for the Capitan crowd. As far as groups go, I feel I can weigh my two cents in. Five shots versus three shots does not matter as long as you maintain an average of groups for said firearms. It all comes down to methodology. If you park one shot outside the group across a series of four five shot groups, that weapon has a 20 percent failure rate. If it parks one shot outside every other three shot group over a course of six three shot groups, it's still pretty much a 20 percent failure rate. But, if on demand, you can run a three shot group subMOA without failure, you have a proven weapon. You do you, brother. You turn out some great hardware. Fuxk the armchair ballastitions that couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle. 4 likes

thirtythree_three It's been awhile since my third Stats class.... (And I provided the Litz photo a year or maybe more ago....emailed it to Mark per his request), but IIRC, the math is correct, but there's a certainty metric that can be better gauged by more shots. That is.... While a .5 MOA group will equal .640 some X percentage of the time it will not equal .640 some Y percentage of the time (or some percentage related to a bell curve). Otherwise, why not just shoot 2 shots? At some point that certainty delta approaches zero with more samples (shots), so it's not meaningful to shoot more. I'm a 5-shot guy myself because I've seen enough of my own three shot groups be 0.10 when the gun is really a .4 or a .5, and that's borne out by the successive shots. I didn't see the FDE thread (and remember, I sent the Litz page) so don't ban me if this stokes something from there. 1 like

  -  thirtythree_three @thirtythree_three apparently I did see the thread...I just didn't see it blow up. Lol.

  -  laruetactical @thirtythree_three ... I have all Litz books, just didn't know which book and what page 🤷

  -  laruetactical @thirtythree_three ... They don't seem to get the fact that I have a double barrel 12 gauge under the bar 🤷😎

  -  thirtythree_three @laruetactical Yep. IIRC, you were away from wherever you keep them, too. Was happy to send them along.

  -  laruetactical @thirtythree_three ... And yeah, of course the average of ten 3-shot groups eliminates outliers. 1 like

cornpop_actual It also brought out the "it took 9 months to get my upper shipped" crowd 😂 btw, I'm looking at ordering one of the 749 complete uppers. In stock means it'll get to me in less than 9 months, right? 😂 3 likes

mikenotgonnagetit Sweet! I'm fine with your testing methods and your results. I have one of your stealth barrels that I won on arfcom from you and its been great. I'm just a weirdo who would rather see 5 round groups because of my own OCD. Yes I'm one of those that even pumps gas and has to have the total dollars end in 5 or 0.

angrygingertx There's different reasons for why a 5 shot group will be bigger than a 3. My .280 mountain rifle with a pencil thin barrel for example. It's hot AF after 3 shots. How long are you going to spend waiting for it to cool between shots? 30 minutes per shot? I think the best way to really test a rifles actual accuracy, especially a hunting rifle, is at an indoor range with the barrel fully cleaned and at room temperature before each shot. Because that's how it's going to be used. So what? 10 hours to shoot a single 5 shot group? That's obviously ridiculous. What a stupid thing to argue about anyway. Personally a rifle shooting to the same point of impact warm and dirty (within an inch or so) as it does with a clean cold barrel is a much more important metric. 3 shot groups are fine. If your barrel is as thick as your wrist or you've got all day then by all means shoot 5. Or 50 🤷

  -  laruetactical @angrygingertx ... And hey, due to the fact you're not dragging a cannon, a pencil barrel let's you stalk closer, reducing the need for 1,000 yard accuracy 😎

  -  angrygingertx @laruetactical anyone with a rangefinder and an app who can rudimentarily judge wind can easily pull off 1000 yard shots nowadays. That has turned hunting into shooting out west now and everyone and their brother is dragging around an 20lbs 28 Nosler with a bull barrel. Except, for hunting, a skinny barrel shoots just as well at 1000 yards as a heavy one does, just for fewer shots in a row before things start getting catywompus, back to why more than 3 shot groups may or may not be entirely pointless for most people. If we are talking about hunting you should only need one anyway.

  -  laruetactical @angrygingertx ... Well stated 💪 2 likes

ninjadanceoff Imagine having the balls to trash talk LaRue on accuracy in an open thread. 😂 4 likes

  -  laruetactical @ninjadanceoff ... That's not "having the balls", that's "missing critical gray matter" 😎 16 likes

ckuykendall81 @laruetactical Any word on when ultimate kits will be available again? I have an ar10 and ar15 larue lower ready to be built, but I cannot bring myself to use any other lower parts other than larue. 1 like